Robert Reich's Blog

Robert Reich was the nation's 22nd Secretary of Labor and is a professor at the University of California at Berkeley. His latest book is "Supercapitalism." This is his personal journal.

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Name: Robert Reich

Latest book, "Supercapitalism," is now out in paperback. For copies of articles, books, and public radio commentaries, go to www.robertreich.org. This blog is available as an RSS feed. Public radio commentaries are now available as a podcast.

Tuesday, August 19, 2008

McCain, Obama, and the Inherent Advantage of Caring More About Ends Than Means

We’ve been here before: The Republican attack machine at full throttle, spewing lies in best-selling books, on Fox News, on talk radio. The mainstream media reporting on the controversy, thereby giving it more air time and squeezing out the Democrats’ affirmative message. Followed by accusations by Democrats that Republicans are playing unfairly. Responded to by smiling shrugs and winks from Republicans, who say Democrats can’t take the heat or can’t enjoy a joke or are out of touch with average Americans who are concerned about whatever it is the Republicans are lying about. This ignites a furious debate among Democrats about how negative they should go against the Republican. “If we use their tactics, we’ll lose the moral high ground,” say the Democratic doves. “If we don’t, we’ll lose the war,” say the Democratic hawks. The debate is never fully resolved. The Democrats sort of fight back but don’t have the heart to do to Republicans what Republicans do to them. And so it goes.

The underlying problem is that Democrats care about means as well as ends, while Republicans care almost exclusively about ends and will use any means to get there. The paradox lies deeper. For most Democrats, the means are part of the ends. We want an electoral process that eschews the lying and cheating we’ve witnessed since Richard Nixon’s dirty tricks. If we use their tactics, we undermine our own goal, violating one of the very things that distinguishes us from them. Yet if we don’t stoop to their level, how can we prevail in a system that allows – even rewards – such lying and cheating?

It’s the same with governing. Right-wing Republicans detest government, so when they screw it up – failing to protect the citizens of New Orleans or returning veterans in Walter Reed hospital, or wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on non-competitive bids for the military, turning budget surpluses into massive deficits – they’re proving their own subterranean point that the public can’t trust government to do anything right. Democrats, once in power, inherit this legacy of distrust and deficit, and spend much of their time in office working their way out of it. And also inordinate time and energy promoting good governmental processes (recall Al Gore’s “making government work” crusade, which holds the record for the most arduous effort generating the least media attention).

Democrats also care about the rule of law – adherence to legal norms, rules, and precedents – as an end in itself. Republican administrations view the law as a potential obstacle to achieving particular ends. Anyone trying to chronicle the Bushie’s disregard for the rule of law is quickly overwhelmed with examples, such as violating civil service laws to fill up the executive branch with political hacks; riding roughshod over constitutional laws in firing federal prosecutors; wiretapping Americans in clear violation of law; holding prisoners of war without charge, in violation of international law; using torture. Democrats, once in power, regard laws as serious constraints on that power. (When I was secretary of labor, the department’s lawyers would instruct me about what I could not do because I was unauthorized to do it, rather than how I might reinterpret or bend the laws in order that I could. The lawyers who work in the Bush administration do the opposite.)

Those who are willing to do anything to achieve their ends will always have a tactical advantage over those who regard the means as ends in themselves. The question posed in this election, and, one hopes, by an Obama administration, is whether the moral authority generated by the latter position is itself enough to overcome these odds.

90 Comments:

Anonymous SimpleLife said...

One of your best yet.

Maybe the best.

Thank you so much.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Bradipo said...

I have not given up hope that we'll get a prosecutor to bring cases for the criminal activity.

We don't even need to prosecute the high government officials. If we can convict enough low-level and mid-level government officials--those who tortured people, those who lied under oath or made material misstatements to government officials, those who engaged in illegal wiretaps--people will remember for a generation that following illegal orders leads to you going to jail, while the people who gave the orders get a free pass. In fact, I think that might be more effective than convicting senior officials.

Judge John Sirica gave us just such a gift. It worked for a generation, but now it needs to be renewed.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Frank Thomas said...

Dr. Reich,

Great essay! Isn't it a pity though we've come so far with the two-party acrimony that we have to demonize each other to win over our respective constituencies?

This is not to say I don't fully agree with your Means-Ends analogy between the two parties. But I have never forgotten the Republican party's traditional values of fairness and concern for community as well as the individual exemplified so well by President Dwight Eisenhower.

The Republican Party today has come to represent for me the party of greed and the INDIVIDUAL ... "survival of the fittest" and fear mongering as an MEANS to achieve benefits for the FEW.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger B. Dewhirst said...

We want an electoral process that eschews the lying and cheating we’ve witnessed since Richard Nixon’s dirty tricks.

Bullshit.

Super delegates.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous tryan said...

I think you have made incorrect distinctions between Democrats and Republicans. It sounds like Democrats = good, Republicans = bad. While there are real differences between the two groups, those are not what they are.

I believe both groups are adhering to evolutionarily selected traits, which can be good or bad, depending upon circumstances. It has been shown that the two groups place different emphasis on the following moral issues:

1) Play fair with others.
2) Do not harm others.
3) Be loyal to the group.
4) Obey the group leader.
5) Keep yourself pure.

All of these can be survival traits. Democrats place most emphasis on the first two, which are how individuals deal with each other, and Republicans emphasize the last three, which is how groups cohere. That's why Democrats rarely fall into one line politically, and why Republicans are willing to sacrifice individual rights to preserve the group against Godless homosexuality, terrorists, or whatever the out group is at the moment.

I'd like to point out that both sets of traits can be very good, or very bad, depending on circumstances. That's why they still exist in the population.

The trick to getting along with Republicans is to get them to believe that you and they belong to the same group, and then convince them that your interests align. Once there, they're usually willing to overlook your disagreeable personal traits.

You can't fix the problem if you don't understand what the real problem is.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger B. Dewhirst said...

Democrats also care about the rule of law – adherence to legal norms, rules, and precedents – as an end in itself.

Bullshit.

Kosovo/Serbia versus what the UN Charter says. You aren't allowed to invade other nations just because you feel you're morally superior.

And, once you start doing that, everyone after you (Bush, Putin...) is going to use it as their

Which is why it is enshrined in international laws... that Bill Clinton decided didn't apply to the United States.

Clinton ought to be before a war crimes tribunal for Operation Storm.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Tryon,

With all sincere respect, your last three criteria sound Fascist, e.g., "keep yourself pure". None of these values explain the fact that most Republicans favor anything that will make them richer. So, I don't see Group theraputic results from their philosophy but only concentraion of wealth and income and social benefits and norms be damm. It´s a `me´ obsession.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tryan, I like Haidt too, but come on, the Republicans of 2008 are completely malignant. That's why McCain 2008 is so different from McCain 2000.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Nemo said...

Democrats also care about the rule of law – adherence to legal norms, rules, and precedents – as an end in itself. Republican administrations view the law as a potential obstacle to achieving particular ends.

Oh yeah, nothing even slightly questionable happened during the Clinton years...

I usually enjoy your commentary, Professor, but this one is pure tripe. No facts, no references, no specifics; just general venting about Republicans and "Bushies".

Who cares about Bush, anyway? I thought we were talking about McCain. You accuse the "Republican attack machine" of "spewing lies in best-selling books, on Fox News, on talk radio", without actually naming a single such lie. Then you spend the next four paragraphs talking about how great the Democrats are and how awful the Republicans are, again without saying anything specific, and mostly attacking the Bush administration.

Which is nice and all, but what the heck does it have to do with McCain vs. Obama?

I cannot stand Bush. But I also recognize that McCain is not Bush. So does the electorate, unfortunately for you.

Please try to make a better argument. Actually, try to make an argument at all...

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous tryan said...

To Anonymous:

Your time scale is too short. Fascism is very good if you're hunting Mastodons. You're also confusing greed with helping your own group. Republicans are not all evil, and Democrats don't have a corner on Virtue. Lincoln was a Republican. However, staying too long in power tends to bring out the worst in groups.

Stop fighting alligators! Drain the swamp! Reich is usually pretty good at doing this. This blog is not a his best writing, though.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Crisatunity said...

I read and enjoy your blog always. However, you must take a step back and consider that you've bought into an idyllic view of the Democratic Party that isn't close to reality. There isn't a single campaigning tactic the Republicans use, have used that the Democrats haven't used in kind.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To tryon,

True in small part what you say, but Republican focus on "helping your own group" has in past years been enriching the Top 20% and to hell with the rest! That's the greed and elitist component. That's why 85% of all US Wealth has come to be in the top 20% of households.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Howard said...

The real problem is that the Democrats want to make elections about policies while Republicans understand that elections are and always will be about personalities. It is the nature of the human animal in the era of the televised campaign. The Republican attack machine is just the political version of the town gossip, universally despised but feared none-the-less.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Howard,

...which means the system is not about content but about systematic, distrotive abuse of each other. Is this right?

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous tryan said...

To Anonymous:

Wealth concentration can be a problem for a society, not because it is wrong (it roughly obeys a power law - is that morally wrong?), but because it can lead to people believing that the system is unfair.
I saw that in South Africa, where society went seriously wrong because one group realized they couldn't occupy the top slot, not for lack of effort, but because of an accident of birth.
Many third world countries are like that. Wealth accrues to those with connections, not merit. That's why they're third world countries.
I'd like the U.S. to avoid that fate.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Tryon,

But the US hasn't avoided that fate. It's suffering from being in the middle of it with structurally stagnant wages, massive jo insecurity, and few advancement possibilities for botton 70%, if not more of society. Simply can't go on like this.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tryan,

error = job insecurity

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Robert D Feinman said...

A slight oversimplification. The GOP has been taken over by right wing authoritarians. Many people who still call themselves "conservatives" or "Republicans" do so because of habit or because they don't realize how far the party has drifted from the days of Eisenhower and Main Street Republicanism.

The distinction that Robert Reich is trying to make is between the authoritarians and their opposites.

This is a psychological thing as some have tried to point out. I suggest reading the free, online, book by psychologist Robert Altemeyer available on his web site:
TheAuthoritarians.com

You will understand the mindset of the GOP leadership much better afterwards as well as the vastly larger group of passive followers.

Altemeyer's point is that there is nothing that can be done to change the behavior of this core group (think Cheney or Rumsfeld), so to this extent I think getting down and dirty to oppose them may be necesary, at least in part.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Reich,

I rarely answer such blogs but found your essay provocative, even though I may disagree here and there. But I'm flabergasted by a recent post from someone called Sbvor. What kind of gibberish does this stange man represent? Does he believe in free speech and reasonable debate? Very strange remarks.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“War is the continuation of politics, politics is war without bleeding, and war is politics with bleeding.” “Those skilled in war cultivate politics…therefore able to formulate victorious policies.” ( Sun Tzu – The Art of War)

The democrats need to grow-up and drop their naiveté and disillusionment that the world should be moral and fair. Our country’s future is at stake. We need to clean up the Republican mess in the next 8 years for a better America.

We need change that will bring this country back towards democracy, not the republican doctrine of greed and every man for themselves.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

Anonymous,

Just the facts, ma’am.

Just the SUBSTANTIATED FACTS!

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Frank Thomas said...

To Robert Feinman:

Well said! My feelings exactly.

But we've come to such an extreme that a 180 degree change is crucial to bring things in Better Balance. It's too bad we Americans have to have a crisis before generally coming to our better instincts and common sense to solve serious problems, e.g. Debt, Energy Independence, Health Care, Social-Infratructure renewal, etc.
Frank Thomas, The Netherlands

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

“authoritarians”?

The HECK with the “feelings” of Frank, examine THE FACTS, including THE FACTS on the history of the abortion movement!

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Athena Smith said...

B. Dewhirst

As for the intervention in Serbia.

First of all, it was not the US. It was NATO. NATO had to intervene because Europe had already witnessed a genocide, the "Never again" is still a strong moral reference in the minds of the older generation, and when you visit the concentration camps and the crematoriums in Dachau and Ausvitch, you get a feeling of what it is all about. (Let alone the catastrophic spill over effects for the neighboring fragile democracies.) During the genocide conducted by Milosevich, Karadzic and their thugs, the pictures from the ethnic cleansing were constantly shown on TV.
We knew.
What would be our excuse if we did not do anything? This is why the intervention was supported by the vast majority of Europeans including our cultural elite.

For many of us, who feel members of an international community, the matter is quite simple. When a genocide is taking place, when the worst crime against humanity after WW2 is evolving under your own eys, (the massacre in Srebrenica to be exact), then the international community not only has the right but also the obligation to intervene.

Why don't they intervene in every genocide? They simply can't if they tend to lose too many peacekeeprs. Clinton did not intervene in Rwanda. 800,000 dead in 100 days. Five times the speed of the Nazis. The worst failute of his foreign policy. However the decision not to intervene there was partially based on the horrific memories of the 18 murdered American Rangers dragged in the streets of Mogadishu on prime time TV.
In other cases there is not an outcry from your own citizens.

But the fact that the international community does not intervene in every genocide, can not be used as an excuse not to intervene anywhere. This thinking is promoted by people who do not give a damn about others getting slaughtered. Or, even worse, who wish that the slaughter does take place.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger notsofast said...

Robert said....
"Those who are willing to do anything to achieve their ends will always have a tactical advantage over those who regard the means as ends in themselves. The question posed in this election, and, one hopes, by an Obama administration, is whether the moral authority generated by the latter position is itself enough to overcome these odds."

You guys need to reread Machiavelli. Unless the dems put on the brass knuckles you'll probably lose in the fall. Get very dirty and nasty and you've got a good chance.

Politics have no relation to morals.(Niccolo Machiavelli)

Destroy Mccain and you win it's that simple.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

NotSoFast,

What the HECK do you think Mr. Reich just did?

Do you really think he is so stupid as to actually BELIEVE he took the high ground?

Don’t make me laugh!

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Frank Thomas said...

To Notsovast:

Sadly, what you and Mr. Feinman have said is realistic for US political situation ... but that doesn't say much positive about the deplorable cultural state we are.

If you proposed such a political philosophical standpoint in most mature European countries today (despite Machiavelli's historical birthplace attachment), you would be quickly discredited for life in politics. Believe me, as I've lived over 30 years here in three different countries and have witnessed how 3-4 party systems generally insure civil, intelligent (yes, very lengthy) discussion and compromise in the interest of all societal sectors.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger notsofast said...

This post has been removed by the author.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Athena Smith said...

As we are shifting into 2009, Machiavelli is still popular in Zimbabwe. Not in the western world.
There is absolutely no proof that could withstand scientific scrutiny that shows a causative correlation between being negative and winning elections.
(Bush did not win because of the swift boat attacks but because of superior organization that mobilized the evengelical vote.)

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger notsofast said...

McCain seriously considering Lieberman for running mate. Wow! Hope he chooses him as the dems need to get this guy out of their caucus. Obama desperately needs some muscle and practicality for a complement. Gun-toting Jim Webb comes to mind. lol

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Reich,

It is a long standing principle in Western moral and ethical teaching that the means to an end must be independently justifiable from the end itself. Said another way, a good end does not justify an evil means.

I'm happy to see you speaking out against the ends-justify-the-means behavior you see in Republicanism.

This perversion of ethical thought can be found as critical to the philosophical foundation of Libertarianism. Read the first few chapters of Capitalism and Freedom by Milton Friedman. His argument for the ethical foundation of Libertarianism is a mind-numbing bit of sophistry in which he argues a means is only justifiable by the end to which it is directed. The argument is so seriously flawed I'm surprised anyone with training in logical reasoning and critical thought pays attention to the book.

With Libertarianism influencing every corner of political thought in Republicanism, it is not hard to understand why the Republican leadership acts as it does. The delicious irony, of course, is that they use Libertarian rhetoric only as a means to their crony capitalist ends. I find it very amusing in those moments I can detach myself from the despair it makes me feel for our nation.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

Your thoughts are right on! It´s shocking how this blog has been invaded by an extremely self-rightous and opinionated libertarian who calls himself Sbvor. He's not only impossible to follow but doesn't give a damn about anyone else's reasoning. He certainly fits your stereotype of the `End Justifies the Means´ Republican spirit today. The Republican Party can have such arrogant, destructive Gung-Ho Capitalist types as far as I´m concerned.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Esther said...

The Democrats need to do the grunt work involved in making sure that the means are legal and moral. Thus far, the Pelosi-headed House has failed to bring articles of impeachment in the name of expediency. For the Dems to take the high road, they need to shine much more light on Republican skullduggery, and making the Republicans pay for what they've done. Legal and honorable behavior is natural for some folks. When it is not natural and some folks don't exhibit it, then consequences have to be brought into play. HAVE to be.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Elections come down to which candidate is more trusted by voters. All the dirty compaining is done to enormously indicate that the other candidate lies or is naive. It's very unfortunate, in my opinion. The financing of the various attacks is grim in the USA.

Issues have always debated, as I recall, in the past National elections that I've been able to vote in over 30 years. Think about the great lines attributed to candidates like "there you go again", "it's the economy stupid", "he can't be trusted", etc.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Athena Smith said...

I can not understand why Libertarians get such bashing here. First of all, do not confuse the genius of Milton Friedman with the stubborness of Sbvor. A libertarian for starters is always pro-choice, he places individual liberty above everything. Thus a woman is the ultimate decider over what happens with her body. A libertarian would be disgusted by the likes of McCarthy who infringed on the right to free speech and free association.

What exactly has Milton Friedman said that has upset so many? His discussion on ethics and coorporation? Take it out of context and it sounds unethical, especially to those who sell "ethics" for a living. Read it carefully and he provides a deeper, more intuitive critique of criminals like Enron than the corporate social responsibility crowd could ever muster.


So please quote him exactly and not out of context if you want to have a fair discussion about the 1976 Nobel Laureate.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

It appears Mr. Reich deleted my first comment.

Let’s see if he will tolerate a similarly factual post without the criticism leveled directly at him.

Here goes:

Mr. Reich,

You assert that:

“The Republican attack machine [is]… spewing lies in best-selling books”

Can you substantiate that?

“lying and cheating”?

William Jefferson, anyone?

“Republicans… failing to protect the citizens of New Orleans”?

School buses not utilized by a LOCAL Democrat, anyone?

“non-competitive bids for the military”?

Were you unaware, or have you forgotten that the ONLY time Halliburton was EVER awarded a “non-competitive bid” was during the Clinton Administration?

“wiretapping Americans in clear violation of law”?

1) Have you forgotten that, the Clinton administration engaged in FAR MORE intrusive snooping during PEACETIME and Bush engaged in FAR LESS intrusive snooping during WARTIME?

2) Isn’t it “interesting” that the legal battle between Congress and the Executive has now been RESOLVED in FAVOR of President Bush? Isn’t “interesting” that even THE most Liberal Senator (Obama) supported this resolution to the legal battle between Congress & the Executive?

3) Isn’t is “interesting” that YOUR Democratic Congress, with this vote, has FINALLY ADMITTED that what President Bush was doing was NECESSARY in order to defend National Security and deal with advances in technology which the OLD, OUTDATED laws had NOT FORSEEN?

“torture”?

Water Boarding?

There is no evidence that water boarding has been used more than three times (and with life saving results).

“Democrats also care about the rule of law”

Don’t MAKE ME LAUGH!

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger kayxyz said...

Three more items: David Brooks stated that every Tuesday the Republicons in Congress/White House meet for lunch and get their talking points for the week. They proceed to talk to those points, regardless of whatever else is going on, obvious truth [for any simpleton to see].

On some blog this week, one of the Fed governors, a Republican, stated the last election was manipulated by Karl Rove and Diebold.

There is already talk about voting machine reliability. One link on Drudge Report, if anyone cares to bother, one link below from a financial blog:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/16/11031/

The Nov 2006 election was how disgusted most voters were by ABC's Marc Foley revelation. The Republican noise machine was caught flat footed. The election this November will be about the intersect: how bad conditions get for middle class Americans so that they stop voting Republican. Where's the point at which Roger Ailes no longer has effect?

The moral high ground today also belongs to every person, especially every Republican, who did not vote for George W Bush in 2000 and 2004.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Blogger Jim said...

If Nemo thinks that the McCain campaign and other "conservatives" aren't pushing lies he just isn't paying any attention. There are already three books and I'm so sick of the McCain ads that are full of distortions and outright lies that are being repeated over and over again during the Olympics.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obama is the Messiah! Don't you people know this!

Did you see the throngs of adoring fans in Europe??? It was like when the Beatles came to the United States!!!

How can you all be thinking of McCain when we could have our Savior instead?

It must be cheating. Yes, that's it! The Republicans are cheaters. That is the only way to explain it!

I mean, how else could Bush have beaten Kerry? Kerry wasn't the son of Yahwey, but he was a big time profit. I mean, Al Franken cried when Kerry lost and he was on Saturday Night Live and wrote a couple of books, which makes him the next senator from the Land of a Thousand Lakes! And, Bush is practically Lucifer. The only way he could win is with dirty tricks!

Yeah. Good argument you've put forth here. Does your mommy need to take you to the potty now, Dr. Reich? I mean, it sounds like you were doing the pee pee dance the whole time.

How do you explain Bill Clinton, then? His line was, "it's the economy, stupid." and he beat the Willie Horton guy. Bill's other line was, "Hey, pretty girl, Why don't you come over here and sit on my lap so that we can talk about the first thing that pops up."

Sam Kinison used to do a skit about the time when Reagan bombed Libya and the French Embassy was accidentally hit.

"Yeah, President Mitterand. Ron Reagan here. Sorry to call so late. Yeah, bad news. The Airforce accidentally hit your embassy in Libya when we bombed them earlier today. {pause} uh huh. {pause} just wanted to call. {pause} uh huh, again sorry. {pause} LISTEN VALERIE. IF YOU HAD LET US USE YOUR AIRSPACE, OUR PILOTS WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO FLY AN EXTRA 6,500 MILES. THEY WERE TIRED! BUILD A NEW HOUSE!

Sam Kinison's comedy is funny because, like all comedy, it has an element of truth that underlies it.

Here's the truth about Obama and why McCain is gaining ground like Jason Lezak.

Obama is cut from the same mold as Kerry, Dukakis, and even Carter with his stunning impotence in the face of a hostage crisis. He is no different than the Francois 'Valerie' Mitterand that Kinison lampooned.

Here's a clue while you're crying in your borscht comrade Reich. WE ARE NOT EUROPEANS. AMERICANS, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO LIVE OUTSIDE OF CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK AND MASSACHUSETTS DON'T WANT TO BE EUROPE. WE THINK IT'S A NICE PLACE TO VISIT. BUT, WE LIKE OUR POLICIES AND BELIEVE THAT CREATIIVE DESTRUCTION AS ADVOCATED BY SCHUMPETER WILL SEE US THROUGH AS IT ALWAYS HAS.

Give it a rest. And, please, stop crying.

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous aly k said...

Athena and Sbvor,

Athena - I liked your comment, particularly on Friedman.

Sbvor – I’ve gone through some of your commentary. And here’s what I think.

Some of your ideological positions are, at the least, plausible. In fact, when it comes to “right-wing” economic ideology (in a very broad sense of the term), I’ve been impressed by the work of many libertarians (particularly the philosophers). Even if people don’t agree with it (like me), there are reasons that demand us to take their positions seriously, one being the very philosophical genius that many of its foremost authors articulate/d. The cool thing about them is that they understood that they were grappling with highly complex issues, thus the need to write books.

You, on the other hand, don’t consider many issues to be complicated. I asked what you propose for the multi trillion dollar debt problem. Not only did you offer suggestions, but you arrogantly claim to have “proved” “the only solution” regarding “deficit spending”

a) If you think you’ve provided any meaningful “proof”, you’re a complete idiot

b) If you genuinely think this is “the only solution”, the faculty of your mind that produces creative thought has been destroyed, and not only are you a bigger idiot than I thought after completing “a)”, but you need to see a psychiatrist asap

Your views on Iraq make me wonder if my prescribed psychiatrist isn’t enough… The nature of your problem may demand and entire team of devoted medical practioners, in a high end psychiatric ward or something (privatized, of course). Cause your Iraq position ought to be dismissed as garbage, and generally is regarded as such, even by much of the most forceful advocates of the war. To be sure, I don’t have a problem with McCain’s ambition to leave with Honor. But you claim (as does he) that the surge worked? And that you want “victory”? (In fact, youre so radical that youre still making the WMD case hahahaahahaha) Let’s see…

On the Iraqi side, there are all sorts of estimates about how many civilians (civilians as in innocent people) have died since the war began. The lower ones range from a couple hundred thousand, and the higher ones are above a million. There are roughly 2 million that have fled the country for fear of their life. There are another 2 million running around as refugees. There has been massive ethnic cleansing. Much of the talent of the country (scholars, businessmen) is gone, along with significant pieces of infrastructure (ie. clean water, electricity).

On the American side, a few thousand brave soldiers have been killed in Iraq. Taxpayers are paying roughly 2 billion a month for a war that the majority doesn’t want any part of. Iran has been the biggest beneficiary, as the new government installed in Iraq has very good (though not “excellent”) ties with “democratically elected” Iraqi government. Much of the Muslim world believes (wrongly) that this is a colonial war for energy resources(which is of course perpetuated when words like Islamic Fascist are a part of republican debates).

Of course, devoting significant resources to Iraq has had consequences beyond its borders. If you had the slightest knowledge of international affairs, you would know that American moral standing in the world has been thrown in the gutter, beyond just the Muslim world (ie. people in Europe, for example, believe that America is the biggest threat to world peace). The Taliban has made significant gains in Afghanistan over the past two years or so. Bin Laden is chilling. Pakistan, a Muslim country that actually does have weapons of mass destruction (nucs), is too unstable for any serious planners to be complacent in the long run (ie. there are enough terrorists in that region to warrant serious concern).

All this considered, and yet people like you are talking about “victory” in Iraq? Buy yourself a dictionary and eat a fat dick… dip the balls in some barbeque sauce, and while youre chewing on them, cross your fingers and hope that the next administration calculates things with much more precision than what we’ve grown accustom to in the past little while, particularly in the area of foreign affairs.

love (*with additional hugs and kisses),

Aly K

Tuesday, 19 August, 2008  
Anonymous aly k said...

correction

***as the new government installed in Iraq has very good (though not “excellent”) ties with it [Iran].

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger David said...

Thanks, Robert Reich, for another insight into the Democratic mindset and it's contradictions. Not sure if any Republicans agree with that but I think it's pretty clear that Republicans generally are more concerned with the ends than how they means to get there. This is only a pretty picture for Democrats though. It shows our weaknesses too.

We (Democrats) tend to be more concerned with the Now! If it requires persistence and patience we tend to lose interest. Not in all cases, myself included, we do work hard and often attain high educational status, but if it requires something dirty like being in the military we tend to avoid the dirty work.

By taking only the "high road" we often miss the real pain of what's going on in the general populace.

Also, the fact that poorer Americans often don't vote as (1)the two party's have abandoned lower working class voters and as a result the Mark Penn's of the world push the Democratic Party to be Republican-lite and (2)constitutionally our system with it's winner-takes-all system only encourages a two party system (rather than a parlimentary system or others) we are just following in a historical cultural war of opposites gradually getting more acrimonious until a new party develops or a war happens. I think of how the early partys acted in our history and I can't see a lot of difference now.

Increasing voter participation might be the nostrum that Democrats need. We have the natural majority as only a minority of people can be rich. With the Republicans it is all for the rich and little for the rest.

Also, Libertarianism has been tried and found wanting-- early 1800s, result massive famines and insecurity leading to the socialist and communist movements-- thus the modern state ala Bismarch's co-option of some socialist ideas that bettered the lot of average folks. That's why a mixture of govt. and business is always a better solution than dog eat dog capitalism.

JK Galbraith paraphrased it something like it's a pity Friedman's ideas have already been tried. Libertarian economics led to horrible events such as the Irish famines and even larger ones in Germany and in the developing worlds. Marxism was a radical (extreme) reaction to Libertarian ideas in vogue with the upper classes of Europe of the early 1800s.

Let's not go there again.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This speech may proide some perspective on how to refocus our society of greed.

JK Rowling's Commencement Address, "The Fringe Benefits of Failure, and the Importance of Imagination," at the Annual Meeting of the Harvard Alumni Association 5 June 2008

President Faust, members of the Harvard Corporation and the Board of Overseers, members of the faculty, proud parents, and, above all, graduates.

The first thing I would like to say is ‘thank you.’ Not only has Harvard given me an extraordinary honour, but the weeks of fear and nausea I’ve experienced at the thought of giving this commencement address have made me lose weight. A win-win situation! Now all I have to do is take deep breaths, squint at the red banners and fool myself into believing I am at the world’s best-educated Harry Potter convention.

Delivering a commencement address is a great responsibility; or so I thought until I cast my mind back to my own graduation. The commencement speaker that day was the distinguished British philosopher Baroness Mary Warnock. Reflecting on her speech has helped me enormously in writing this one, because it turns out that I can’t remember a single word she said. This liberating discovery enables me to proceed without any fear that I might inadvertently influence you to abandon promising careers in business, law or politics for the giddy delights of becoming a gay wizard.

You see? If all you remember in years to come is the ‘gay wizard’ joke, I’ve still come out ahead of Baroness Mary Warnock. Achievable goals: the first step towards personal improvement.

Actually, I have wracked my mind and heart for what I ought to say to you today. I have asked myself what I wish I had known at my own graduation, and what important lessons I have learned in the 21 years that has expired between that day and this.

I have come up with two answers. On this wonderful day when we are gathered together to celebrate your academic success, I have decided to talk to you about the benefits of failure. And as you stand on the threshold of what is sometimes called ‘real life’, I want to extol the crucial importance of imagination.

These might seem quixotic or paradoxical choices, but please bear with me.
Looking back at the 21-year-old that I was at graduation, is a slightly uncomfortable experience for the 42-year-old that she has become. Half my lifetime ago, I was striking an uneasy balance between the ambition I had for myself, and what those closest to me expected of me.

I was convinced that the only thing I wanted to do, ever, was to write novels. However, my parents, both of whom came from impoverished backgrounds and neither of whom had been to college, took the view that my overactive imagination was an amusing personal quirk that could never pay a mortgage, or secure a pension.

They had hoped that I would take a vocational degree; I wanted to study English Literature. A compromise was reached that in retrospect satisfied nobody, and I went up to study Modern Languages. Hardly had my parents’ car rounded the corner at the end of the road than I ditched German and scuttled off down the Classics corridor.

I cannot remember telling my parents that I was studying Classics; they might well have found out for the first time on graduation day. Of all subjects on this planet, I think they would have been hard put to name one less useful than Greek mythology when it came to securing the keys to an executive bathroom.

I would like to make it clear, in parenthesis, that I do not blame my parents for their point of view. There is an expiry date on blaming your parents for steering you in the wrong direction; the moment you are old enough to take the wheel, responsibility lies with you. What is more, I cannot criticise my parents for hoping that I would never experience poverty. They had been poor themselves, and I have since been poor, and I quite agree with them that it is not an ennobling experience. Poverty entails fear, and stress, and sometimes depression; it means a thousand petty humiliations and hardships. Climbing out of poverty by your own efforts, that is indeed something on which to pride yourself, but poverty itself is romanticised only by fools.

What I feared most for myself at your age was not poverty, but failure.
At your age, in spite of a distinct lack of motivation at university, where I had spent far too long in the coffee bar writing stories, and far too little time at lectures, I had a knack for passing examinations, and that, for years, had been the measure of success in my life and that of my peers.

I am not dull enough to suppose that because you are young, gifted and well-educated, you have never known hardship or heartbreak. Talent and intelligence never yet inoculated anyone against the caprice of the Fates, and I do not for a moment suppose that everyone here has enjoyed an existence of unruffled privilege and contentment.

However, the fact that you are graduating from Harvard suggests that you are not very well-acquainted with failure. You might be driven by a fear of failure quite as much as a desire for success. Indeed, your conception of failure might not be too far from the average person’s idea of success, so high have you already flown academically.

Ultimately, we all have to decide for ourselves what constitutes failure, but the world is quite eager to give you a set of criteria if you let it. So I think it fair to say that by any conventional measure, a mere seven years after my graduation day, I had failed on an epic scale. An exceptionally short-lived marriage had imploded, and I was jobless, a lone parent, and as poor as it is possible to be in modern Britain, without being homeless. The fears my parents had had for me, and that I had had for myself, had both come to pass, and by every usual standard, I was the biggest failure I knew.

Now, I am not going to stand here and tell you that failure is fun. That period of my life was a dark one, and I had no idea that there was going to be what the press has since represented as a kind of fairy tale resolution. I had no idea how far the tunnel extended, and for a long time, any light at the end of it was a hope rather than a reality.

So why do I talk about the benefits of failure? Simply because failure meant a stripping away of the inessential. I stopped pretending to myself that I was anything other than what I was, and began to direct all my energy into finishing the only work that mattered to me. Had I really succeeded at anything else, I might never have found the determination to succeed in the one arena I believed I truly belonged. I was set free, because my greatest fear had already been realised, and I was still alive, and I still had a daughter whom I adored, and I had an old typewriter and a big idea. And so rock bottom became the solid foundation on which I rebuilt my life.

You might never fail on the scale I did, but some failure in life is inevitable. It is impossible to live without failing at something, unless you live so cautiously that you might as well not have lived at all - in which case, you fail by default.

Failure gave me an inner security that I had never attained by passing examinations. Failure taught me things about myself that I could have learned no other way. I discovered that I had a strong will, and more discipline than I had suspected; I also found out that I had friends whose value was truly above rubies.

The knowledge that you have emerged wiser and stronger from setbacks means that you are, ever after, secure in your ability to survive. You will never truly know yourself, or the strength of your relationships, until both have been tested by adversity. Such knowledge is a true gift, for all that it is painfully won, and it has been worth more to me than any qualification I ever earned.

Given a time machine or a Time Turner, I would tell my 21-year-old self that personal happiness lies in knowing that life is not a check-list of acquisition or achievement. Your qualifications, your CV, are not your life, though you will meet many people of my age and older who confuse the two. Life is difficult, and complicated, and beyond anyone’s total control, and the humility to know that will enable you to survive its vicissitudes.

You might think that I chose my second theme, the importance of imagination, because of the part it played in rebuilding my life, but that is not wholly so. Though I will defend the value of bedtime stories to my last gasp, I have learned to value imagination in a much broader sense. Imagination is not only the uniquely human capacity to envision that which is not, and therefore the fount of all invention and innovation. In its arguably most transformative and revelatory capacity, it is the power that enables us to empathise with humans whose experiences we have never shared.

One of the greatest formative experiences of my life preceded Harry Potter, though it informed much of what I subsequently wrote in those books. This revelation came in the form of one of my earliest day jobs. Though I was sloping off to write stories during my lunch hours, I paid the rent in my early 20s by working in the research department at Amnesty International’s headquarters in London.

There in my little office I read hastily scribbled letters smuggled out of totalitarian regimes by men and women who were risking imprisonment to inform the outside world of what was happening to them. I saw photographs of those who had disappeared without trace, sent to Amnesty by their desperate families and friends. I read the testimony of torture victims and saw pictures of their injuries. I opened handwritten, eye-witness accounts of summary trials and executions, of kidnappings and rapes.

Many of my co-workers were ex-political prisoners, people who had been displaced from their homes, or fled into exile, because they had the temerity to think independently of their government. Visitors to our office included those who had come to give information, or to try and find out what had happened to those they had been forced to leave behind.

I shall never forget the African torture victim, a young man no older than I was at the time, who had become mentally ill after all he had endured in his homeland. He trembled uncontrollably as he spoke into a video camera about the brutality inflicted upon him. He was a foot taller than I was, and seemed as fragile as a child. I was given the job of escorting him to the Underground Station afterwards, and this man whose life had been shattered by cruelty took my hand with exquisite courtesy, and wished me future happiness.

And as long as I live I shall remember walking along an empty corridor and suddenly hearing, from behind a closed door, a scream of pain and horror such as I have never heard since. The door opened, and the researcher poked out her head and told me to run and make a hot drink for the young man sitting with her. She had just given him the news that in retaliation for his own outspokenness against his country’s regime, his mother had been seized and executed.

Every day of my working week in my early 20s I was reminded how incredibly fortunate I was, to live in a country with a democratically elected government, where legal representation and a public trial were the rights of everyone.

Every day, I saw more evidence about the evils humankind will inflict on their fellow humans, to gain or maintain power. I began to have nightmares, literal nightmares, about some of the things I saw, heard and read.

And yet I also learned more about human goodness at Amnesty International than I had ever known before.
Amnesty mobilises thousands of people who have never been tortured or imprisoned for their beliefs to act on behalf of those who have. The power of human empathy, leading to collective action, saves lives, and frees prisoners. Ordinary people, whose personal well-being and security are assured, join together in huge numbers to save people they do not know, and will never meet. My small participation in that process was one of the most humbling and inspiring experiences of my life.

Unlike any other creature on this planet, humans can learn and understand, without having experienced. They can think themselves into other people’s minds, imagine themselves into other people’s places.

Of course, this is a power, like my brand of fictional magic, that is morally neutral. One might use such an ability to manipulate, or control, just as much as to understand or sympathise.

And many prefer not to exercise their imaginations at all. They choose to remain comfortably within the bounds of their own experience, never troubling to wonder how it would feel to have been born other than they are. They can refuse to hear screams or to peer inside cages; they can close their minds and hearts to any suffering that does not touch them personally; they can refuse to know.

I might be tempted to envy people who can live that way, except that I do not think they have any fewer nightmares than I do. Choosing to live in narrow spaces can lead to a form of mental agoraphobia, and that brings its own terrors. I think the wilfully unimaginative see more monsters. They are often more afraid.

What is more, those who choose not to empathise may enable real monsters. For without ever committing an act of outright evil ourselves, we collude with it, through our own apathy.

One of the many things I learned at the end of that Classics corridor down which I ventured at the age of 18, in search of something I could not then define, was this, written by the Greek author Plutarch: What we achieve inwardly will change outer reality.

That is an astonishing statement and yet proven a thousand times every day of our lives. It expresses, in part, our inescapable connection with the outside world, the fact that we touch other people’s lives simply by existing.

But how much more are you, Harvard graduates of 2008, likely to touch other people’s lives? Your intelligence, your capacity for hard work, the education you have earned and received, give you unique status, and unique responsibilities. Even your nationality sets you apart. The great majority of you belong to the world’s only remaining superpower. The way you vote, the way you live, the way you protest, the pressure you bring to bear on your government, has an impact way beyond your borders. That is your privilege, and your burden.

If you choose to use your status and influence to raise your voice on behalf of those who have no voice; if you choose to identify not only with the powerful, but with the powerless; if you retain the ability to imagine yourself into the lives of those who do not have your advantages, then it will not only be your proud families who celebrate your existence, but thousands and millions of people whose reality you have helped transform for the better. We do not need magic to change the world, we carry all the power we need inside ourselves already: we have the power to imagine better.

I am nearly finished. I have one last hope for you, which is something that I already had at 21. The friends with whom I sat on graduation day have been my friends for life. They are my children’s godparents, the people to whom I’ve been able to turn in times of trouble, friends who have been kind enough not to sue me when I’ve used their names for Death Eaters. At our graduation we were bound by enormous affection, by our shared experience of a time that could never come again, and, of course, by the knowledge that we held certain photographic evidence that would be exceptionally valuable if any of us ran for Prime Minister.

So today, I can wish you nothing better than similar friendships. And tomorrow, I hope that even if you remember not a single word of mine, you remember those of Seneca, another of those old Romans I met when I fled down the Classics corridor, in retreat from career ladders, in search of ancient wisdom:
As is a tale, so is life: not how long it is, but how good it is, is what matters.
I wish you all very good lives.

Thank you very much.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Anonymous anonymous said...

I can not understand why Libertarians get such bashing here.

Athena S.

You conservatives might be better received over at the Ayn Rand blog.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger Nicholas said...

Do "we" really want somebody who will do anything to get what they want. It sounds like we have the "speak" part of see no evil in ads, but perhaps we need the eyes and ears as well. The visual progression from Nixon could be quite good.

Somehow I sense that K Street is going to figure prominently.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the failure of the Obama campaign to characterize/attack McCain is basic and even shocking.
We criticize the Repubs for not being reality based, but this was truly not reality based.
It does remind me of the moral fussiness of 'lefties/progressives/dems' who anguish over trifles but turn a blind eye
to the decline of the American middle class (consumer culture, o yuck). Obama didn't want to attack
because he wanted to be better than that. Wishing won't make it so: grow up.

The latest Zogby has Obama behind for the first time - and he trails on the economy as an issue!
That is more than just allowing himself to be defined by McCain, though that is extremely
important (hello, Kerry). But also a flaw in his campaign is that it addressed worried elites who wanted
somebody smart (as their 'change'). From the start, he rose heaps of money from Wall Street for example.
Elites connect to him, but working folks don't see someone who will fight for them. Fatal.

This is what I learned from Chicago politics: You need fire in the belly.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

The view from the cheap seats.

First, many of you are getting to upset with the postings of sbvor. He is not to be taken seriously, in fact he is not to be taken at all. Though he is the personification of much of what Dr. Reich is preaching here he is but "a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more;.." his "is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Much wisdom posted here by many. Would tend to agree with notsofast's choice for VP except for the experience factor. Webb is certainly a rising star and while I feel he is totally competent to add significantly to the Obama ticket, selling him to the American public, at this point, could be far more difficult.

Athena; No doubt that Bush's victory over Kerry was due greatly to a well organized campaign staff doing what they have become very good at doing; getting out their vote. However, the Swift Boating cast just enough doubt for fence straddlers likely leaning toward Kerry to either vote the other way or avoid voting at all.

There is absolutely no proof that could withstand scientific scrutiny that shows a causative correlation between being negative and winning elections.

This statement sounds eerily of naivete. The apathy, and ignorance, of the average American, tends to minimize a reliance on issues, because most don't understand them, at least completely, but planting derogatory seeds, true or not, emboldens not having to think and casting votes on some moral or fear basis. Pogo, forever, reigns supreme.


It is interesting that the success of political campaigns, as all competitions, relies heavily on strategy. Hillary is a classic example. Had she started her campaign as she finished it she would probably be the presumptive nominee at this point. Kerry suffered some of the same. Not only was he slow is responding to the Swift Boaters but his strategy began with the idea that Bush, due to the Iraq war, would be easy to beat. The American public disdains nothing more, ex murders and rapists and child molesters, than a false hero, especially from wartime. If you could point to just one thing that most likely defeated Kerry it would be the Swift Boating, with a dash of flip-flopping for flavor.

Tryon; An interesting post (your first one) and I'm inclined to agree with most of it. Point 5), is a political axiom spanning all parties, at which both fail miserably at times. Point 3), in and of itself is not necessarily bad provided that the goals of the group are established collectively. When point 4) is the order of the day then the group becomes nothing more than a pack of wolves following the leader to the consume the nearest prey.

To paraphrase Dr. Reich, once movement conservative, as opposed to all Republicans, gained power, their interest shifted from a desire to govern to a desire to maintain power, if they ever cared about governing. Most probably the braintrust of movement conservative had that goal in mind all along. Governing became a means to power not an end and keeping the troops on message is the only way to achieve the goal.

Being somewhat of a competitive nut all my life I am drawn to the arguments for playing hardball; for fighting fire with fire; derogatory with derogatory. Problem is that those kinds of actions would belie Obama's primary casus belli.

Obama is correct, as is Frank, that the only way we will begin to progress as a nation concerned for the welfare of all is if we can overcome this vitriolic political nonsense. As Frank will also confirm, I do not see this happening short of a multigenerational segue.

Contrary to Athena's thoughts, the politics of personal destruction has proven successful at all levels of politics, across all 50 states, for a number of years. Do you think Jesse Helms, may he rest in peace, was re-elected time and again because he was the best candidate, with the best ideas?

If we wanted heat, tit for tat, we should have nominated Hillary. She would have been much more effective at that game and it would not have been inconsistent with her message. Obama has painted himself in a corner, it is a good corner and bodes well for us if he can pull it off, but to deviate now from his premise would only provide more fuel to the McCainiacs to label him, at best, a flip-flopper, again, and at worst, very disingenuous, a false prophet.

I believe the vast majority of Americans hold Obama's views but many of them do not vote. Until our populace begins to understand that every vote is necessary and the only way to truly establish a government of the people is for those people to let their voices be heard in the voting booth, we will be condemned to pendulum swings every 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 years.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

One thing I do find hillarious is McCain and his written comments, written by others I'm sure.

One thing most liked about McCain was not only his independence but his ability to answer questions off-the-cuff. Be it brief Q&As with reporters or appearances on news talk shows, McCain always seemed to be able to thrust and parry with the best of questioners.

Clearly, early in his campaign it became apparent that teleprompters were not his forte. Off-the-cuff remarks in a poliical campaign can lead to problems and they often did for him. The answer? Written statements. Maybe they're just notes or outlines but the frequency of his downward glances to his "cheat sheets" would appear to portend full text responses.

Though one can understand the necessity for controlling what comes out of a candidate's mouth it does give one pause sensing that the candidate either has no thoughts to express personally or that he can't be trusted to express them without a script.

The advantage of teleprompters is that those viewing from beyond the immediate site can't tell they are being used, if you are good at using them.

I fear this need for written comments might be one more example of notsofast's concern for, shall we say, "senior moments".

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

Frank:

Am sure you've read it but the NYT has an excellent article on Obama's economic philosophy in today's online version.

Here

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, brother. I am so tired of Democrats being portrayed as Saints, and the Republicans as evil. For some there is only black and white, it seems. There are only a few on this board that seem to reason with their minds open; the rest are all knee-jerk reactionary, and rather Pavlovian. Say the word "Republican" and let the frothing begin.

It is time to realize that life is fuzzy rather than clear-cut, and to measure each person for the truth inside them rather than the labels they are tagged with.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger Rain said...

Obama will have to go negative but not as in implying things about McCain's past which don't relate to the job for which he's applying. You are right in that democrats care about how we win but we can't let that make us soft. If Obama doesn't hit McCain on his character (in terms of leadership) the average citizen will think the McCain/Rovian ads are telling the truth. I don't like how it is but we have seen their tactics work with the voter in the middle. Amazing but there is no use denying it. We have to encourage Obama to strike back but in the realm of what applies to the job.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rain,

Very well said. Obama has to activate that Robert Kennedy steely fire and in-your-face confrontation with Republican failures -- qialities that sit in reserve in Obama's character as well.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Anonymous Frank Thomas said...

Art,

I've got the NY Times article entitled: "How Obama Reconciles Dueling Views on Economy." Will read article tomorrow as it's pretty late here. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger kayxyz said...

Here's from the blog The Market Ticker. Read the blub...blub...blub entry. He doesn't like either candidate.

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

I recommend reading the financial blogs. Start with Financial Ninja. He's Canadian and owes no allegiance to either US political party. DollarCollapse.com is another good site. Google and you will find them.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Blogger whatshisface said...

The Republican attack machine at full throttle, spewing lies in best-selling books, on Fox News, on talk radio. The mainstream media reporting on the controversy, thereby giving it more air time and squeezing out the Democrats’ affirmative message. Followed by accusations by Democrats that Republicans are playing unfairly. Responded to by smiling shrugs and winks from Republicans, who say Democrats can’t take the heat or can’t enjoy a joke or are out of touch with average Americans who are concerned about whatever it is the Republicans are lying about. This ignites a furious debate among Democrats about how negative they should go against the Republican. “If we use their tactics, we’ll lose the moral high ground,” say the Democratic doves. “If we don’t, we’ll lose the war,” say the Democratic hawks. The debate is never fully resolved. The Democrats sort of fight back but don’t have the heart to do to Republicans what Republicans do to them. And so it goes.


The republican attack machine can guarantee the subject any day of the week, 24 hours of the day...No other subject is important. Obama. Not the economy, not Georgia, not Russia,…its Obama.

Today, it is Barak Obama. Yesterday it was Barak Obama.On all these hate radio programs, the talk is about him. You'd think they'd find time to talk about Bush' stupid war in Georgia; Or Condosleeza Rice's threat to Russia to get out of Georgia? No...none of that...its Obama. Day and night...night and day.

Then there is fanny may and freddie max going under. Good subject but...the 24-7 talkies only have eyes for Obama.
So much for the Fairness doctrine they spew. Rush Limbaugh, Shawn Hennessy, Gallagher, Oreilly, William Bennet…the list goes on…the subject is the same…what goof Barak Obama executed.

Wednesday, 20 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whatshisface,

If lower-middle class Americans believe the money-making character destroying, fear mongering garbage the Limbaughs, Shawns, Henneseys, Gallaghers, Bill Bennents spew with such blatant disinterest in Mainstream society's progress, then lower-middle class America will get exactly what it deserves:

no real change to a system that is gradually making numbing dismissable slaves of over 60% of the population;

a system that's got the top 20% feeding its wealth voluptuously over the bodies of the rest;

a system where the wealth of all 230,000 millionaires equals the GDP of China, Japan, Brazil and EU combined;

a system where the wealthy insiders make themselves tax-free and shift the burden onto labor who become tools of subsistent production at minimum wages without benefits;

a tax system where it's more profitable to keep people in debt and speculating than investing in industrial production;

a system where the Mainstream is succumbing to a polarizing economic and social existence of "just getting by" under threat of constant job insecurity and impoverishing unemployment compensation;

Welcome to the me-me-me greedy Two-Economy Society for all to Enjoy.

We all get what we ask for and never learn otherwise. So voters beware of ultra-conservative thieves of your souls and pockets preaching Capitalism's gifts to the less fortunate and educated, the hard workers and dedicated.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Poor people have been voting for Demoncrats for 50 years and they're still poor.

Sir Charles.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger whatshisface said...

There's no answer in this political system but revolution. It was that way from the day they created this constitution that was based on capitalism and the destruction of the will of man for the fat cats. Of course, they gave us life, liberty and the persuit of happiness...I believe...but then Washington was off to hang those who refused to pay the Whiskey tax.
After all, why did those suckers fight? To be free from taxes?

About caring for the Ends rather than the means, this article on McCane shows the same elements at work.
Anonomous, Democrats, republicans...they are all the same. But, their masters, the super rich in Wall street make good targets.

As for that hot-dog McCane, Herr Goeta would have something to say about this...in his Dr. Faustus


I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button
By Phillip Butler, Military.com
Posted on August 21, 2008, Printed on August 21, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/story/95825/
John McCain is a long-time acquaintance of mine that goes way back to our time together at the U.S. Naval Academy and as Prisoners of War in Vietnam. He is a man I respect and admire in some ways. But there are a number of reasons why I will not vote for him for President of the United States.
When I was a Plebe (4th classman, or freshman) at the Naval Academy in 1957-58, I was assigned to the 17th Company for my four years there. In those days we had about 3,600 midshipmen spread among 24 companies, thus about 150 midshipmen to a company. As fortune would have it, John, a First Classman (senior) and his room mate lived directly across the hall from me and my two room mates. Believe me when I say that back then I would never in a million or more years have dreamed that the crazy guy across the hall would someday be a Senator and candidate for President!
John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy. John had me "coming around" to his room frequently during my plebe year. And on one occasion he took me with him to escape "over the wall" in the dead of night. He had a taxi cab waiting for us that took us to a bar some 7 miles away. John had a few beers, but forbid me to drink (watching out for me I guess) and made me drink cokes. I could tell many other midshipman stories about John that year and he unbelievably managed to graduate though he spent the majority of his first class year on restriction for the stuff he did get caught doing. In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates.
People often ask if I was a Prisoner of War with John McCain. My answer is always "No - John McCain was a POW with me." The reason is I was there for 8 years and John got there 2 1/2 years later, so he was a POW for 5 1/2 years. And we have our own seniority system, based on time as a POW.
John's treatment as a POW:
1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals.
2) John was badly injured when he was shot down. Both arms were broken and he had other wounds from his ejection. Unfortunately this was often the case -- new POW's arriving with broken bones and serious combat injuries. Many died from their wounds. Medical care was non-existent to rudimentary. Relief from pain was almost never given and often the wounds were used as an available way to torture the POW. Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda.
3) John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first.
4) John was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart for heroism and wounds in combat. This heroism has been played up in the press and in his various political campaigns. But it should be known that there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor -- 8, Service Crosses -- 42, Silver Stars -- 590, Bronze Stars -- 958 and Purple Hearts -- 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well. But it must be remembered that he was one hero among many -- not uniquely so as his campaigns would have people believe.
John McCain served his time as a POW with great courage, loyalty and tenacity. More that 600 of us did the same. After our repatriation a census showed that 95% of us had been tortured at least once. The Vietnamese were quite democratic about it. There were many heroes in North Vietnam. I saw heroism every day there. And we motivated each other to endure and succeed far beyond what any of us thought we had in ourselves. Succeeding as a POW is a group sport, not an individual one. We all supported and encouraged each other to survive and succeed. John knows that. He was not an individual POW hero. He was a POW who surmounted the odds with the help of many comrades, as all of us did.
I furthermore believe that having been a POW is no special qualification for being President of the United States. The two jobs are not the same, and POW experience is not, in my opinion, something I would look for in a presidential candidate.
Most of us who survived that experience are now in our late 60's and 70's. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John's age (73) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for 4 or more years.
I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button.
It is also disappointing to see him take on and support Bush's war in Iraq, even stating we might be there for another 100 years. For me John represents the entrenched and bankrupt policies of Washington-as-usual. The past 7 years have proven to be disastrous for our country. And I believe John's views on war, foreign policy, economics, environment, health care, education, national infrastructure and other important areas are much the same as those of the Bush administration.
I'm disappointed to see John represent himself politically in ways that are not accurate. He is not a moderate Republican. On some issues he is a maverick. But his voting record is far to the right. I fear for his nominations to our Supreme Court, and the consequent continuing loss of individual freedoms, especially regarding moral and religious issues. John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be.
Senator John Sidney McCain, III is a remarkable man who has made enormous personal achievements. And he is a man that I am proud to call a fellow POW who "Returned With Honor." That's our POW motto. But since many of you keep asking what I think of him, I've decided to write it out. In short, I think John Sidney McCain, III is a good man, but not someone I will vote for in the upcoming election to be our President of the United States.
AlterNet is a nonprofit organization and does not make political endorsements. The opinions expressed by its writers are their own.
Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals. After his repatriation in 1973 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at San Diego and became a Navy Organizational Effectiveness consultant. He completed his Navy career in 1981 as a professor of management at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace.
© 2008 Military.com All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/95825/

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whatshisface,

Phillip Butler's story indeed represents that of hundreds if not thousands of veterans of the immoral Vietnam War. I lost my best friend there whose regiment was under intense sniper fire in a jungle. Jimmy, a graduate of West Point, took some heroic risk (some would say careless) and climbed a tree to spot out how his troops might get out. Within minutes a sniper shot him through the heart. He was a quiet, modest guy just doing his job.

McCain is a well-meaning man but not the brightest person in the world, certainly insufficiently astute to deal with all the complex problems facing us. He promotes his war hero stuff to inflate his qualifications to be Commander-in-Chief because he's pretty Naive on so many other matters, like "The Economy, Stupid."

I have every confidence in Obama's emotional maturity and capability to surround himself with very competent people concerning Defense matters and other matters. He's a natural for foreign policy issues because he's been globally brought up in foreign lands himself. And, today, he's not bought by the powerful lobbyists thanks to his creative thinking on bottoms-up campaign financing.

Phillip Butler's writing has only further reassured me that Obama is also a true American Dream, with the pragmatism and brains to initiate desperatly needed Constructive Change for All in this broken nation of ours. He's no Messiah, doesn't pretend to be--but he has the right instincts, character and wherewithal to bring us far with his ideas for Change.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

Athena sez:

“A libertarian for starters is always pro-choice, he places individual liberty above everything.”

I’ve never known a Libertarian who believed a mother had the “right” to murder her children solely for the sake of her personal convenience. I have, however, known many Democrats who did.

The abortion question breaks down like this:

1) Roe vs. Wade

Roe vs. Wade must be (and will be) overturned solely as a matter of Constitutional Law. That view is best expressed by this excerpt from a dissenting opinion of the day:

“I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant mothers [410 U.S. 222] and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. The upshot is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally dissentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the mother, on the other hand.”

Once the Constitution has been restored; the duly elected legislatures of the various states can then determine how each state shall proceed.

2) Life begins at conception

The question of when human life begins must, by definition, involve a transformational event.

The only transformational event in the entire process is conception. Conception is when two haploids merge to form a diploid.

It is intuitively obvious that the moment (conception) when that diploid is created is when a new human life is created. Every event thereafter is a transitional event (as opposed to a transformational event).

Also, conception is an utterly unambiguous event. Any other attempt to define the moment when human life begins is both ambiguous and relative to each pregnancy. In short, it is nothing but a political contrivance invented for the sole purpose of legitimizing and legalizing the cold blooded murder of the most helpless and most vulnerable of our citizens.

3) The Culture of Murder

This culture of murder for convenience defines our society, both qualitatively and quantitatively, as among the most barbarous ever. In my view, the general decline of our culture is directly traceable to the callous disregard we show to these, the most helpless and most vulnerable, of our citizens.

4) Justifiable Homicide

In my view abortion law should closely reflect existing homicide law. That is to say that there are cases where the homicide is justifiable. Preserving the life of the mother would clearly qualify. Rape is an area where reasonable people may disagree.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What a bunch of nonsensical crap--each party is interested in one thing, accumulating power for it's own sake. In which case, the means are the ends, and vice vesa. Good intentions are meaningless if the problem is made worse, as each party has done, in their own way.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

sbvor:

Ever the parser. Why didn't you include in your quoted passage the last sentence in the paragraph?

To wit:

..."As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the Constitution extends to this Court.

You'll notice that the dissent of Justices White and Rehnquist did not claim that the actions of the court were "unconstitutional" but rather, perhaps, an extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review.

Justice White goes on:

The Court apparently values the convenience of the pregnant mother more than the continued existence and development of the life or potential life that she carries. Whether or not I might agree with that marshaling of values, I can in no event join the Court's judgment because I find no constitutional warrant for imposing such an order of priorities on the people and legislatures of the States. In a sensitive area such as this, involving as it does issues over which reasonable men may easily and heatedly differ, I cannot accept the Court's exercise of its clear power of choice by interposing a constitutional barrier to state efforts to protect human life and by investing mothers and doctors with the constitutionally protected right to exterminate it. This issue, for the most part, should be left with the people and to the political processes the people have devised to govern their affairs.

You will notice here that Justice White does not invoke a moral view of the abortion question nor does he admit to an absolute belief that the fetal life is paramount to the rights of the mother. His position is predicated solely on the question of state's rights. State's rights versus federal law is not an uncommon issue to face the court.

The concern for when life begins was addressed by the court with a thorough review of the history of the subject with much of it related to religious and philosophical and social views none of which appear in line with your views.

Your arguments are conflicted in that you would deny the Supreme Court the right to make such a determination but seem perfectly willing to accept the State's right to make the same determination. In either case it would be a government legislating;
"...In short, it is nothing but a political contrivance invented for the sole purpose of legitimizing and legalizing the cold blooded murder of the most helpless and most vulnerable of our citizens." This tends to render your "life begins" argument moot since you don't deny a governmental entity the right to legislate the decision you just disagree that the Supreme Court should have that right.

The State's rights argument is a longstanding one surrounding a plethora of issues and there are usually valid arguments on each side. In this case the court did find a violation of Constitutional rights, based almost solely on the Amendments.

We each have a right to disagree and question the judgments of all courts but seldom do any of us go to the lengths which the court employs to settle on a final opinion. And the nature of legal questions almost always affords dissenting opinions.

I would suggest that in your case when the two haploids conjoined they formed a "dip" without the "loid".

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

This post has been removed by the author.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

Art,

Your “argument” (if one can find the means to artificially elevate your usual diatribe to that level) is debunked by once again quoting the dissenting argument from Justice White (emphasis mine):

“The upshot [of Roe v. Wade] is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally dissentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the mother, on the other hand.”

So, yes, the duly elected legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally entitled to legislate when abortion may and may not be legal.

But, I also agree with Justice White when he said:

“I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant mothers [410 U.S. 222] and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes.”

Using your “logic” (or what passes for it), we might was well do away with all 50 of the state legislatures and defer all their duties to The Supreme Court.

The facts stand!

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

sbvor:

Notwithstanding your ignorant musings regarding my "argument", (we are all aware that no one has legitimate argument except you, NOT) we come down to, as I stated, the question of State's versus the US Constitution.

When State Law is judged to be contrary to individual rights guaranteed by the Constitution, the Constitution wins, as in this case. It happened numerous times before this case and numerous times after.

With all due respect to Justices White and Rehnquist, they were but two dissenters versus seven assenters. Not that you would understand but it boils down to the "ayes" have it, by anybody's "logic".

Actually, your agreement with the dissenters gives strong credence to the assenters decision.

I could make strong arguments that the original concept of a Republic is outdated, but another time.

One only needs to understand that we are first citizens of the US and secondly citizens of our respective states. As long as state legislatures make laws that do not infringe on Constitutional rights or are not discriminatory they may continue along blissfully.

And of course we are faced once again with your inability to understand what "facts" are.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

Art,

1) I am well aware of the Supremacy Clause of the United States Constitution.

2) 1973 may well have been the zenith of so-called American Liberalism, especially as it relates to the makeup of the Supreme Court. At least where the Supreme Court is concerned, the tide has been gradually shifting ever since.

It is only a matter of time before the tyranny of Roe v. Wade is overturned and the question of how to deal with abortion is properly returned to the duly elected legislatures of the 50 States.

Until then, all law abiding citizens must abide by the law, even when it is tyrannically imposed by so-called “Liberals” who have utter contempt for the letter of the United States Constitution.

3) The facts stand!

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Anonymous Yoski said...

So what do Democrats stand for? Steal from the taxpayer and give to their buddies on Wall Street? They just engineered one of the bigest bailouts for the crooks/campaign donors on Wall Street at taxpayer expense.
I am sorry but Democrats come across as corrupt, incompetent and spineless. As far as the Republicans go, they got us where we are today, which is in a whole lot of trouble.
If we don't get rid of both parties and all the lobbists we are doomed.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Anonymous Eric said...

It is always a bit maddening to see an argument like the Mr. Reich's: articulately framed yet utterly devoid of internal coherence.

Here we have a man who honestly insists that Democrats and Republicans are fundamentally behaviorally different, as if party allegiance trumps or dictates human nature. The claim is absurd on its face. Moreover, it is a reflection on just how fundamentally twisted the poltical climate has gotten.

To pretend that both major parties aren't neck deep in the same sort of tactics is pure fantasty. Democrats may call Bush and Cheney every name under the sun, and leap to the worst conclusions about their motives, while Republicans ramble about being patriotic enough. McCain has gone negative, as has Obama. This article is enough to demonstrate - contrary to its own thesis - that the Democrats are capable of cheerfully engaging in exactly the sort of blanket smears it accuses Republicans of. It isn't as though Republicans were running the city of New Orleans when it needed protecting, or Detroit as crime spiked and employment plummeted, or even Congress as the price of energy soared. The simple truth is that the most bi-partisan thing about government lately has been its paralysis - its failure.

The problem is, there are too many people like Robert Reich here who view the other side through an utterly warped lens and are thus unable to make the compromise snecessary for effective democratic government. So to the author in closing:

Do America a favor - grow up.

Thursday, 21 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

sbvor:

And your mindless prattle continues. Just for the record:

Justice - Appointer

Burger – Nixon
Douglas – Roosevelt
Brennan – Eisenhower
Stewart – Eisenhower
White – Kennedy
Marshall – Johnson
Blackmun – Nixon
Powell – Nixon
Rehnquist - Nixon

Three Supreme Court Justices appointed by Democratic Presidents and one of those was a dissenter to Roe v. Wade. Not a group that one would tend to call "so-called Liberals".

The decision was made based on the majority interpretation of the Constitution. That you, especially, interpret it differently is of little consequence. To date you have not exhibited the intellect to qualify you to wipe the butts of Supreme Court members.

It is the "letter of the United States Constitution" that the Supreme Court is often called upon to determine.

Friday, 22 August, 2008  
Blogger whatshisface said...

Eric:

Amen!

After the economy collapses, lets vote for an Independent, Ralph Nader.hrmbkk

Friday, 22 August, 2008  
Blogger whatshisface said...

How does it feel to vote for war criminals?

tp://meetthebloggers.org/> tomorrowMichael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down
While Bombing Innocent Civilians?


By Liliana Segura, AlterNet
Posted on August 21, 2008, Printed on August 22, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/www.alternet.org/95906/

/This post originally appeared in PEEK's blog./

Confession: I have not yet read all six (short, illustrated, large type) chapters of /Mike's Election Guide 2008/, Michael Moore's, latest work of jaunty political opinion. Am I supposed to discuss it with him on "Meet the Bloggers" But I'm not worried. It's a breezy read, has already made me laugh out loud, and besides, I may have already found the best part in Chapter One.

The title is "Ask Mike!" and, in it, ordinary voters, old and young, pose questions about politics and current events. Some are more serious than others ("If Iran has weapons of mass destruction, we should invade, right?"), which does not make Moore's answers any more subtle. ("Excuuuuuse me? Did you say the words, 'weapons of mass destruction?' Take it back. I SAID TAKE IT BACK!") Of course, the "questions" are really satirical jabs at the media -- "When a Republican wears a little American flag lapel pin, what is he trying to say?" "If Obama can't bowl, can he govern?" -- but there's one in particular that is worth paying attention to -- especially if you happen to be a member of the press and have been utterly unwilling to take McCain's supporters and opponents alike to task for perpetuating a narrative that would be central to a McCain victory, and which has already become a dominant theme in this election: The McCain as War Hero canard.

The "question" is posted thusly:

*"Why did the Vietnamese shoot down John McCain and put him in prison for five years? He seems like such a nice guy."*

ANSWER: I'm guessing, in spite of his anger management issues, he is
a nice guy. He has devoted his life to this country. He was willing
to make the ultimate sacrifice in the defense of our nation. And for
that, he was tortured and then imprisoned in a North Vietnamese POW
camp for nearly five-and-a-half years.

That's the set-up. It gets better. Moore proceeds, not to question, as Wesley Clark recently did to so many shrieks of criticism, whether McCain's capture really makes him qualified to be president of the United States -- the answer, any thinking person realizes, is "no" -- but whether the Vietnam war was a conflict that can really be said to have produced the breed of "American hero" McCain is so often celebrated as.

"Sadly," he writes, "McCain's sacrifice had nothing to do with protecting the United States. He was sent to Vietnam along with hundreds of thousands of others in an attempt to prop up what was essentially an American colony, South Vietnam, which was being run by a dictator whom we installed."

Lest we forget, the Vietnam War represented a mass slaughter by the
United States government on a scale that sought to rival our
genocide of the Native Americans. The U.S. Armed Forces killed more
than two million civilians in Vietnam (and perhaps another million
in Laos and Cambodia). The Vietnamese had done nothing to us. They
had not bombed or invaded or even sought to murder a single
American. President Johnson and the Pentagon lied to Congress in
order to get a vote passed to put the war in full gear. Only two
senators had the guts to vote "no."

But the parallel between Iraq and Vietnam is not the only point Moore is making. He makes it personal.

John McCain flew 23 bombing missions over North Vietnam in a
campaign called Operation Rolling Thunder. During this bombing
campaign, which lasted for almost 44 months, U.S. forces flew
307,000 attack sorties, dropping 643,000 tons of bombs on North
Vietnam (roughly the same tonnage dropped in the Pacific during all of World War II). Though the stated targets were factories,
bridges, and power plants, thousands of bombs also fell on homes,
schools, and hospitals. In the midst of the campaign, Defense
Secretary Robert McNamara estimated that we were killing 1,000
civilians a week. That's more than one 9/11 every single month --
for 44 months.

What's not heroic about that? Is it any wonder all politicians speaking in public about John McCain are required to preface their remarks with a fawning admiration for his war service?

Alas, McCain does have some regrets about Vietnam. As Moore points out, in his memoir Faith of Our Fathers, McCain called it "illogical" and "senseless" that he was limited to bombing only military targets.

"I do believe," McCain wrote, "that had we taken the war to the
North and made full, consistent use of air power in the North, we
ultimately would have prevailed."

In other words, McCain believes we could have won the Vietnam War
had he been able to drop even more bombs.

When McCain was shot down, on October 26, 1967, he was busy bombing what he would describe as a "heavily populated part of Hanoi."

What follows is a a rather entertaining passage in which Moore then asks what you would do to a man who "fell out of the sky" after dropping bombs on you or your children. But the most important question comes at the end:

John McCain is already using the Vietnam War in his political ads.
In doing so, it makes not just what happened to him in Vietnam
fair game for discussion, but also what he did to the Vietnamese …
*I would like to see one brave reporter during the election season
ask this simple question of John McCain: "Is it morally right to
drop bombs and missiles in a 'heavily populated' area where
hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians will perish?*"

Of course, no member of the "mainstream" media is going to ask John McCain that question. (And given his famous quips on "Bomb-bomb-bomb-ing Iran" or, when asked to comment on the U.S. exporting cigarettes to the country, on the speculation that "Maybe that's a way of killing them," the answer may be too disturbing to bear.) Regardless, this is the same press that obligingly calls McCain a "maverick" and McCain's campaign bus the "Straight-talk Express." Going after his war hero credentials? Why, that would be ... un-American.

Luckily, in the absence of an effective media -- or one that takes its cues from Michael Moore -- there are some people who are uniquely qualified to ask tough questions about the war hero John McCain, and they can't all be considered "surrogates" for Barack Obama. One of them is a man named Phillip Butler, who, on AlterNet today, has an article whose point, really, is laid out in the title:

I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button

Originally published on Military.com scathing, point-by-point indictment of McCain that punctures the war hero mythology he has so successfully insulated himself in.

It is part fact-check ("Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969"), part much-needed perspective ("Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda"). But perhaps its most compelling characteristic is that it is written by a former POW of a misbegotten war, who has seen the death and destruction firsthand, and who is fearful of what McCain would do as commander in chief. "I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that

red button."

Now that's a quote. Maybe it's time for a new 3 AM ad.

Liliana Segura is a staff writer and editor of AlterNet's Rights and Liberties and War on Iraq Special Coverage.


© 2008 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at:






Also, it should be remembered that McCain is an unconvicted felon and war criminal.If you need the citations, let me know.

Also, everytime Barak Obama votes to fund our boys, he too is a war criminal.

Friday, 22 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

Art,

You may (or may not) recall that the President nominates and the Senate confirms. Ask Robert Bork how that works.

Justice - Year confirmed - Congress

Burger - 1969 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
Douglas - 1939 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
Brennan - 1956 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
Stewart - 1958 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
White - 1962 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
Marshall - 1967 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
Blackmun - 1970 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
Powell - 1972 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress
Rehnquist - 1971 - Dems controlled both houses of Congress

EVERY member of the 1973 Supreme Court was confirmed by a Democrat controlled Senate.

Thus, it is no surprise that the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision was very, very consistent with the ideology of so-called “Liberals”.

Again quoting the dissenting argument from Justice White (emphasis mine):

“The upshot [of Roe v. Wade] is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally dissentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the mother, on the other hand.”

That disentitlement was very much consistent with a very troubling history associated with the American abortion movement.

Friday, 22 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

sbvor:


LOL! Your lunacy knows no bounds.

Justice - Year confirmed - Senate

Thomas - 1991 - Dems controlled the Senate

Scalia - 1986 - Reps controlled the Senate but the confirmation vote was 98-0

And your point is?

Perhaps you could chart the Dem Senators by eye color to reflect which of those who voted for confirmation of Republican nominated Justices were "liberals" versus merely moderate Dems. Maybe weight would be the better criteria; or hair color; or even amount of hair. Maybe separate the Dems by legitimate and illegimate offspring. Oh wait, the "liberals" wouldn't have any illegitimate offspring, they'd have opted for abortions instead. Sounds like an analysis that would be right down your alley.

Bork was an abortion!

Friday, 22 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

Art,

Thomas:
Dems did not dare reject an extremely well qualified black justice. It would not have been “Politically Correct”.

Scalia:
“a core member of the conservative wing of the court”
A very well qualified justice who recently voted to uphold the Second Amendment AND delivered the opinion of the court. What’s your point?


The facts stand!

Friday, 22 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Art and SBVOR:

Maybe the two of you should get a room.

Whatshisface (a.k.a. Lord Chamberlain):

All soldiers who fought in Vietnam and presently in Iraq are war ciminals?

Are you F#&king kidding me? Can you prove such a strong accusation? Have you ever served? Or, are you too much of a prissy pants liberal, a so called conscientious objector, to ever dein such a fate

Let me enlighten you as the son of a Vietnam veteran and as some who is a Gulf War and Kosovo veteran.

War serves a political end and we can debate whether or not or under what circumstances it might be moral. That would be fine. But, your accusation is insulting, offsensive and WRONG.

Some people who serve in war committ atrocities and it is right to call them criminals. Others cry every night for their wounded/kia friends and for those they've wounded/killed. I know that I did and still do from time to time. My father does to (almost 40 years later).

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SAY WHAT YOU DID. 1) YOUR ACCUSATION IS BASELESS. 2) YOU'RE A COWARD. 3)NEVER FORGET THAT THE REASON YOU CAN SAY SUCH TERRIBLE THINGS IS BECAUSE PEPOPLE LIKE ME AND MY DAD WERE THERE WHEN OUR COUNTRY CALLED.

My dad grew up poor and was drafted. He had no choice and wasn't some rich prep school kid who could avoid the war with college deferments.

My family couldn't afford to send me to the college of my choice, but I luckily won an Army ROTC scholarship. The good thing was that my college was paid for. The tradeoff was a four year hitch (that turned into 10) and entailed putting myself in front of bullets.

Neither my father nor I joined up as a result of some bloodlust. One was drafted. The other did it for the school money. We didn't want to go to war, but found ourselves in it.

We could have run, like I'm sure you would. Instead, we stood. Instead, we fought. Instead, we overcame our fear as you would not.

I'm sorry you hate yourself for your weakness and lack of courage. I'm sure that's what compels you to sit in blanket judgement.

I think the best thing for you is to get together with all of your orher friends, buy an island and form a new country. You could call it Fagland.

Go F*&^ yourself.

Friday, 22 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

Your attack on Art Layman and Sbvor (the latter is nutcase for other reasons) was entirely in error. The person responsible for the slamming of McCain as a war criminal and even Obama if he "funds the boys", is a:

Liliana Segura, Alter Net Rights and Liberties and Wae on Iraq Special Coverage.

Your feelings are well understood by this Anonymous who knows the human tradegy of war. But the article by Philip Butler is his opinion on McCain's explotation and misrepresentation of his war
experience for political gain as well as Butler's experience closeby of McCain´s Hot Head temperate as disqualifying him from responsibility to push the Red Button... a ligitimate point comimg from a fellow Vietnam prisoner and many others who performed correctly and bravely as prisoners.

Again, am entirely sympathetic with your disgust with crap message of Liliana Segura ... but she´s to blame for your hurt, not Mr. Laman of Sbvor.

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger whatshisface said...

War Criminal:

Anyone who serves in War...
whose state declared that it would not engage in war...save to protect itself from aggression...

Anyone who served in Vietnam is a war criminal. Anyone who served in Iraq is a war Criminal. Anyone who served in Yugoslavia...

The UN Chief Kofi Annan said that the war in Iraq is illegal.

Secretary of State Frank Kellog and French Prime Minister? Briand declared that all nations should renounce war and many states signed onto that Pact, including Germany and Japan. That was back in 1932?

The United Nations Charter also renounced war and devised the Charter as an alternative to war and said that before anyone would use force, they would settle their difference in the UN among the nations in a peaceful fashion. They agreed they would talk with their enemies and not say "we don't talk to terrorists." or "We won't deal with that country until..."

All you monkeys that dropped bombs on vietnamese cities or killed vietnamese in any way...all of you jerks that engaged in a conspiracy whether you were a dishawasher or??? were engaged in a conspiracy and therefore guilty of war crimes. What do you think the US was doing when it tried the driver of Osama Bin Laden?

Why do you think all the german soldiers are regarded as war criminals even today. A dishwasher or a grunt that was a loyal soldier to the Wehrmacht is hounded even today because he was in Hitler's Army and is a war criminal.

At Nurenberg and Dachau, the US declared who was a war criminal and who was not and it was based on the Kellog-Briand Pact.

By those rules, you and your buddies are common felons. So anonomous, you are not a war hero, you are not a good guy by international law...you are a war criminal. If you don't like it, take it up with the International Court. They'd love to have you. I am just splaining what that mass murderer McCain was all about. You think he's a hero when he goes over towns and military bases and drops his load on innocent vietnamese? Do you think you were right when you joined to help bring them your brand of democracy. You guys still need a pat on the back? Do us a favor and wake up.

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whatshisface,

Listen you rabble-rousing moron. War is War. People are called, serve, are wounded and die for country and under orders. Your ugly words to those who made the supreme sacrifice is a desecration of their dying. Take your criminal talk to the Leaders who get us into bad wars and war crimes committed during wars, e.g., Bush and Team ---the group that promoted military and innocent dying on a monstrous scale based on lies to the general public. They are the true criminals. Suggest reading Vincent Bugliosi's book: The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder. He's the criminal, not the soldiers/officers in their graves or wheelchairs betrayed by following orders from corrupt political leaders who got us into the illegal Vietnam and Iraq killing sprees and invasion of another each country's sovereignty.

By the way WWI and WWII were truly good, legitimate wars that destroyed the Devil's evil. Are those who died there representing the battle for freedom from tyranny criminals also? Your shot-gun ugly BS desecrating all military functions and people is disgusting and cowardly. No one wants war, but sometimes, as a very last resort, it's necessary. You also need to wake up!

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger Blue said...

What I don't get is why the Democrats don't attack the Republicans for lying. It's not that the Democrats refuse to fight dirty. They refuse to fight at all. There is nothing dirty about telling the world that the Republicans lie. Yet we refuse to do it. Democrats seem unable to use the "L" word, even when it's exactly right. If we can't do that, we make it easy for them to get away with anything.

It's not that the Democrats refuse to fight dirty. It's that we refuse to fight at the personal level. No matter what content the Republicans convey in their messages, it is always an attack on the aperson of some Democrat. The Democrats simply fail to do the same. It's not that hard. Make the case that the Republicans are liars, not that their lie is wrong.

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

sbvor:

The facts stand!

You have offered no "facts" merely opinions and obscure innuendos. As usual your opinions are basically worthless.

Thomas:
Dems did not dare reject an extremely well qualified black justice. It would not have been “Politically Correct”.


"Extremely well qualified"? Your judgments continue to go downhill, perhaps beyond the bottom. He may very well be the least qualified nominee ever.

As it was he was confirmed with the narrowest margin of votes in the history of Supreme court nominees (52-48), with only 11 Democratic votes and most of those Democrats from southern states concerned about the black votes in their states. There were also two nay votes from Republicans. "Did not dare" should be made of sterner stuff.

It is interesting your use of "extremely well qualified" for Thomas but only "very well qualified" for Scalia. Scalia was extremely well qualified with a brilliant legal mind. I don't agree with much of his judicial philosophy but it would be folly to suggest that such a mind should not be sitting on the Supreme Court (preferably in the minority).

I believe that all the Dems in the Senate felt this same way which is why he received a 98-0 vote (two Reps Senators were absent).

Thomas would be more appropriately employed as a law clerk for Scalia.

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

anonymous:

Maybe the two of you should get a room.

Sage advice perhaps but then we would not be privy to the thoughtful intellectual postings that you present. I, for one, would not want to miss any of them.

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger SBVOR said...

Art,

You are correct (on one thing only).

Scalia is extremely well qualified (as is Thomas). My apparent disparity of praise was unintentional.

Beyond that, the facts stand!

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger Art A Layman said...

sbvor:

My apparent disparity of praise was unintentional.

One reviewing all your posts might suggest that it was not so much "unintentional" as "unthinking" a habit you seem inclined to.

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger whatshisface said...

Anonomous:

Unconvicted felon or war criminal: It is all the same. That is what you are. That is what your friends are. That is what your Father is, poor or not.You have to realize that you fall in the same bracket as a nazi soldier who faithfully fought for his country even though he was on the side of Hitler.

You sound so brave and so full of hero stuffing that I wonder if you read my post. You asked me to prove my statements and then, when I did, you ignored everyone of them and talked about WWII.

If I had an Abrahms tank or an F16 at my command, I think I'd be brave and a hero. If I had sattelites and drones and all that other stuff, I'd wipe the floor with you. You are so brave and so tough, you couldn't even defeat Iraq or afghanistan who don't have 1000th of the weaponry you have. I'd say you and all those that you served with are a bunch of pussies besides being war criminals and felons. How many women did you rape and how many people did you kill trying to convince yourself that the ones you killed you were killing to make me free? Isn't that a stretch? You are killing children so that I could be free? Are you out of your mind? By the way, God Bless America but you are still a war criminal.

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Blogger whatshisface said...

Listen you rabble-rousing moron. War is War. People are called, serve, are wounded and die for country and under orders. Your ugly words to those who made the supreme sacrifice is a desecration of their dying.

As a sentient citizen who is supposed to abide by the law, you are not allowed to participate in a criminal enterprise such as war or gangs engaged in the sale of heroin etc. etc. etc. When you go out with your boys, in Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan or even in Germany, it was to terrorize the natives with your overwhelming force and to tell them that you had a bigger stick than them. Secondarily, you convinced yourself that you were really serving your country.

That is such crap. You were not serving your country in Vietname, you were not serving your country in Iraq or Afghanistan nor in any country where you had boots on the ground. You were there to colonize the natives and to enslave them. More importantly, you were there to steal from them. You did that with Shock and Awe and more importantly, by totally destroying their societies. You reduced civilized peoples to a life of stone age man. You destroyed their way of life, their roads, their electricity, their water and sewage, their industry, everything. You killed their men, women and children. And after you erased their civilization, you want to bring them your democracy. What sort of moron are you? War is War. People are called to serve. People are wounded and die for country under orders. Your ugly words to those who made the supreme sacrifice...

I'll bet you have a tattoo of the American flag right between your eyes. Are you serious.

You made no sacrifice.You said yourself that you were poor and that you joined because of the benefits you could squeeze out of the taxpayers. You made a bargain...a pact wtih the evil one. You did not make a sacrifice. You gambled with your life and if some of you died, it wasn't a sacrifice, a supreme sacrifice or whatever. It was a gamble for a better standard of living. The only trouble with that gamble was that other nations had to perish under your guns and under your leadership. In short, you were engaged with war criminals in a criminal enterprise. Surely you can see that.

You did not do what you did for this country. You did it for yourself. You, and all the others, couldn't give a hoot about the law. All you cared about is what you could get out of Uncle sam after it was all over.Ks that what you mean by bravery...sreving your country...being a good citizen. Give me a break. Nobody dies for their country; they die becuase they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. When these buddies of yours died, they were engaged in a crime. Just ask the ICCC in the Netherlands. Google them. Idiots like you want everyone to glorify your crimes....go to ....

Saturday, 23 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Reich, I am a great fan of your books but this post has made me feel somewhat embarrassed at how vigorously I have recommended you to my friends. Demonizing your opponent is not helpful, nor does it strengthen your case with thinking people (read: independents). Refer to Ron Chernow's excellent biography of Alexander Hamilton--the chapters on the miserable, mudslinging ideological contest between him and Thomas Jefferson.

Sunday, 31 August, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey guys got this website homepage name Pikadu ( www.pikadu.com ) where you can vote the online poll for Obama/ Mccain

Tuesday, 02 September, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Republicans have been lying about Obama raising taxes. Obama will cut taxes MORE than McCain for those earning under 112k/yr., and the VAST majority of Americans earn far less than that.


http://ktracy.com/?p=1412

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/url.cfm?ID=411693

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gG5GFB

Tuesday, 09 September, 2008  
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